I’m Audie Cornish and that is The Assignment. And at present I’m bringing in a good friend, Sam Sanders, host of The Sam Sanders Show, which is a popular culture podcast from KCRW. But the explanation why is as a result of 2026 marks a milestone for Sam’s technology.
My godson referred to as me unc some time again and I assumed it was a praise for a couple of days.
Honestly, you will have unc vibes.
The millennials, the youngest of that cohort lastly turns 30 and with the brand new yr, there’s been this like wave of nostalgic social media posts and reversion photographs and looking out again to quote unquote the less complicated instances of 2016. So Sam is right here to assist me make sense of this development, to assist make sense the politics of millennial tradition then and now? Like, does a technology raised on virality nonetheless imagine something on-line can change the world? Stay with us.
When you began at NPR, you had an adolescent title.
In the politics job. Oh, yeah after I lined politics at NPR. I lined the 2016 elections. I used to be on the path 15 16. My beat was the intersection of popular culture and politics and it was such as you’re gonna get the memes. I had a weekly column referred to as meme of the week, the place I talked about memes and I used to be identical to, you realize the younger child who will get the web
Okay, nicely guess what? You guys are the previous folks now.
And what’s loopy is how shortly it occurred. I feel I went into COVID lockdown feeling nonetheless very a lot that younger reporter who was professionally younger. And I let you know what, as soon as Fauci stated, return exterior, I used to be aged.
So earlier than we get began, let’s simply do the delineation. And Pew Research says anybody born between 1981 and 1996 is taken into account a millennial.
You’re 84, whereas I’m like late, like late 70s, just like the final two years of the 70s, which is how I ended up feeling like an elder millennial, however not making the minimize fairly actually.
‘And I used to be wanting on the markers that they prompt. One was being between the ages of like 5 and 20 through the 9-11 assaults.
I used to be a senior in highschool.
Yes, precisely. I used to be in faculty, rising up within the shadow of the Wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, being between being like roughly voting age for the 2008 election. Like you guys are si se puede, like that is your
Oh my God, it was a foundational second. The manner younger folks did that election. It was an enormous deal.
And you had been essentially the most, you had been, trigger I say Gen Z is now, essentially the most racially and ethnically various grownup technology within the nation’s historical past. And then lastly, in fact, the financial recession. I feel everybody remembers these information tales. I used to be like, they do not transfer out of their home. They spend cash on avocados and low or no matter. That was form of the knock on millennials. And now there’s an entire different new spherical of knocks, which is cringe. The concept that as a technology you are form of honest in a manner that’s uncomfortable to the youngs.
Does any of that sound right to you?
All of it sounds right to me. And when I’ve to take into consideration these timeline factors of how we got here of age, it is like, all proper, we had an enormous overseas coverage occasion with the Twin Towers, we had large monetary occasion with The Recession. You know, issues like that may proceed to occur to every kind of oldsters in any respect ages. But I feel what separates us going via that from Gen Z going via that, is that they’re at all times on-line consuming these large hits and having to carry out despite it. It seems like there is a time period a good friend used, and now all the youngsters on-line use I suppose, referred to as the panopticon. This thought that everybody is current in surveillance of all people else on a regular basis.
Even utilizing the phrase surveillance, I feel, could be very specific. Whereas again when there was the, what I’d say, the buzzfeedification of media, the place the purpose of numerous media was to go viral, even whether or not it was foolish or severe, like going viral was form of a quaint and charming purpose.
Well, and it is like we had been surveilled then, however we did not suppose it was that. We had been simply going viral.
That’s proper there. Yeah. Yeah. That’s excellent there!
An easier time. That most likely is what we’re seeing on this spherical of memes which have come up as a result of, you realize, it is 2026. 2016 is now firmly a decade away. And you will have folks wanting again on it prefer it’s an easier, happier time. Tell me about this.
Yes, okay, in order quickly as your workforce reached out and it was like, we would like to discuss 2016 and all of the memes, I stated, wait, maintain on. Let me refresh my reminiscence. I feel I really wrote a bit for NPR
‘referred to as, this was December twenty eighth, 2016, the headline was, ought to all of us simply cease calling 2016 the worst? So we have been saying all the pieces is the worst for a really very long time. My first strains on this piece are, oh, 2016 the yr all of it went to hell, the yr nothing made sense, the yr we misplaced monitor of actuality, the yr Merriam-Webster made surreal its phrase of the yr. I’m at all times actually intrigued by how we sort of typically put like new names on an ever-current phenomenon. Like the world’s at all times burning, the world is at all times on hearth. We discover new language for it.
‘And we should always, let me simply clarify this to folks. Yeah, so mainly this can be a social media nostalgia development the place mainly you go onto your Instagram or no matter and also you submit an image of your self from that point. You received to dip into the digital camera roll and end up in 2016, displaying the form of pre-pandemic, pre-AI slop life that you simply had been main. And the factor that’s loopy about it, the BBC was reporting. The search phrases, mainly. You had folks on TikTook looking 2016, like, oh, what was it like? And on Snapchat, like oh, that is so attention-grabbing. And then the opposite factor that got here up is, I do not know if you happen to bear in mind NPR’s tiny desk live performance with Edward Sharp and the Magnetic Zeros.
I used to be on the constructing for that. And I’ll always remember that very same week that Edward Sharp and his workforce had been doing Tiny Desk they had been enjoying 930 Club. Somebody emailed the all employees to say, I received some Edward Sharp tickets, who needs them? Please reply simply to me. I replied to the entire constructing.
We had been very, yeah, y’all had been very like unfastened with the all employees. Oh yeah. So the New Yorker described this single because the cranking furnace of the fake lumberjack, mustachioed, mason jar clutching, acoustic guitar strumming, hipster zeitgeist. The magnetic zeros had been ubiquitous. This is critical as a result of once more, it turned this dialog on-line the place somebody posted the clip and so they had been like, that is horrible. And all of those millennials got here out of the woodwork to be like, no, it was a greater time. This track is like stuffed with hope and it jogs my memory of fine issues. And and folks had been piling on them. And it turned a dialog, I feel, that distilled this argument about sincerity, cringe, and the cultural posture of this technology.
Totally. I really feel just like the central stress right here, once we’re enthusiastic about a millennial core and Gen Z core, it is like millennials are seen to be very earnest, Gen Z very jaded. And my factor is like having lived via being in that younger technology after which going to now, in some unspecified time in the future you will be each. Like at some you can be jaded too. I’ve to remind myself of that.
‘Again, I really feel in a different way. I really feel just like the Gen X cynicism, the Gen Z model of that has curdled into nihilism and that we see it of their political actions, proper? So whether or not it is their proper-wing actions, that are very a lot rejecting multiculturalism, rejecting the liberal world order, reject, reject reject, or the left-wing model of that, which is once you’re speaking to an adolescent and so they’re like, oh, nicely, I imply, it’s late stage capitalism. And you are like what? Like, wait a second, what are we saying? Like there, I really feel just like the social contract that was fraying with millennials feels totally ruptured for Gen Z. And they only have a totally completely different thought of like their relationship to society, what they’re getting out of it, what they had been promised. Like, I feel, I really feel like they’re greater than jaded. Like, they’re actually basically disenchanted.
What do you suppose are the largest causes for it? I’ve some theories.
No, inform me your principle first!
I really feel like a lot of it’s the manner that we take in the world. I feel that the web that you simply and I had been consuming 10 years in the past, 15 years in the past it appeared less complicated.
It was. It was much less populated. What shade is that this costume?
‘Yeah, it was additionally much less populated by a lot content material. I feel the shift from textual content-based mostly web to video-based mostly Internet to infinite scroll Internet. That’s made us all really feel overwhelmed perpetually. Our telephones went from being a factor the place we shared with simply our buddies to a platform the place we skilled sensory overload amongst strangers on a regular basis. And I’m unsure that we, our brains and our our bodies have caught up to that large change. It’s a really large shift. If you go browsing now and open Instagram, it is like you’re at a music pageant and you may hear all people speaking on the similar time, however you continue to wanna hear the music.
It’s attention-grabbing as a result of regardless that TikTook is participatory, regardless that it seems like they’ve a voice, I really feel like millennials grew up on, you realize, Facebook partitions and messenger and Tumblr and quizzes and issues that really had been basically extra social. Like I, now when I’m on these items and I see feedback, I’m like, is {that a} bot? Is that AI? Like I haven’t got any sense. It’s like I really really feel like I watch social media now greater than I’m social on social media.
I actually blame numerous this on the choice, and Facebook led the cost, once they moved all of us over to a newsfeed.
You know who was behind that? Adam Mosseri got here up with the newsfeed. He is now in command of Instagram, preventing for his life. And it exhibits. For his life. And it exhibits.
But within the early Facebook days, you posted stuff and also you solely noticed what you and your folks posted in chronological order. And that was it.
To individuals who needed to see it, needed to take part, and needed to be in a dialog with you. Whereas now, rage bait means, by definition virtually, the particular person paying consideration to you may hate your guts.
And it is not even rage, nevertheless it’s like half rage bait, half AI slot. So on high of all of this, yeah. It’s like, I see so many movies day-after-day that I ship to buddies and so they write again and say, that is AI, bro. That’s AI. I can not inform. So like that additional complicates all of us.
I’m speaking with Sam Sanders. He’s host of The Sam Sanders Show, good friend of mine. Glad you are again. Stay with us.
So I’m gonna flip to one thing that won’t really feel associated, however is, okay? Which is the politics of this second and the story round ICE in Minneapolis, the dying of Alex Pretti, the dying of Renee Goode for a few causes. Number one, each of these folks had been like millennial age, like they’re of their late thirties, proper? The different factor is that the dialog round their deaths is so radically completely different if you happen to’re on TikTook and Instagram versus Facebook and X, proper? So once more, that form of like, it would not really feel like a socially cohesive media expertise and that actually shapes the dialogue. And then the factor I wanna put to you, and you might inform me if I’m incorrect, if 9/11 was the millennial Pearl Harbor, I’m wondering if these deaths in Minnesota are your Kent State.
Probably sure, however I feel the largest distinction between Kent State and now could be that for many Americans in that period, if you happen to needed to discover dependable details about what occurred, there have been a handful of stories sources who most people simply trusted. And now we’ve got seen a standard information media diminished. We’ve seen these apps which might be ascendant. Become extra beholden to shareholders and in addition stuffed with AI. And the largest factor is that like now our model of the web, if you consider it, it’s distinctive for each single particular person. I’ve my very own algorithm, you will have your individual.
Yeah, it would not construct consensus.
And the content material that’s the most prioritized is the stuff that is essentially the most incendiary. You know, we discuss fixing healthcare and fixing our army, fixing our borders. I additionally need to have a dialog about fixing no matter our public sq. is. It’s damaged. It’s damaged.
Sorry, there isn’t any reply there. Just extra questions.
No, no, no. I imply, in a manner, I’m asking that as a result of like, you realize, you you had been that authentic skilled younger particular person in politics.
There’s a lot about this story that’s that has to do with how this technology has grown up alongside its know-how. I imply you will have ICE officers wielding their very own cell telephones.
‘Monitoring, observing via your telephone has grow to be some of the particular and concrete acts of defiance and resistance in communities like Minneapolis and others. And it is also now being referred to as violence or terrorism, proper, by folks like Kristi Noem and the state. It does really feel just like the technology that introduced us virality-
‘-is nonetheless like counting on it by some means. Even although the system would not work the identical manner. Like virality would not make accountability.
Not in any respect. I bear in mind, I used to be masking Black Lives Matter protests a few years in the past. There was this second when that motion stated, oh, we’ve got video now. It will change all the pieces. We have video now, as soon as they see it, in fact they will cease. And I bear in mind monitoring this story years after these first large excessive profile instances of black folks being shot by police on digital camera. Every yr, the variety of police concerned shootings on this nation both went up or stayed the identical.
So you are completely proper. Just as a result of we see it does not imply we repair it.
But we really feel prefer it’s nonetheless potential. The act of holding up that telephone means you’re feeling like down the road, if it is not at present, if not tomorrow, and even whether it is the truth that there are going to be some individuals who imagine what they see. And that did occur with the dying of Alex Pretti, proper? This administration was popping out sizzling, calling him an murderer, calling him a home terrorism, this, that. And there have been only one too many telephones on the market for that to fly.
Yeah. Well, and we have additionally seen as a lot as newsrooms have been decimated on this new media local weather, there was, I feel, a extremely good shift on the way in which that numerous newsrooms cowl incidents with the police, with ICE, with border patrol. When I first started…
Exactly like I first started masking these sort of shootings and anytime that we received an announcement from the police we simply believed it.
That is a extremely good level. Even now, as we’ve got all these questions on Kash Patel and the FBI and this administration and who they examine, we’re all extra comfy with the concept of claiming perhaps legislation enforcement is not at all times telling you the entire story.
Exactly, precisely. It’s humorous. I have not been sleeping nicely this final week. The information has simply been tough. I’ve been a bit sick as a result of it is that point of yr. And one of many issues I’ve had to do to simply assist myself prepare to sleep as I get better, I’ve have to delete numerous these apps from my telephone. Because particularly in mild of those ice shootings, you realize, you open Instagram and instantly it seems like that app is punching you within the face. It is combative. And I feel the concern and the problem and the worry that I face is somebody who was involved about this. I’m like, oh, am I doing a great job if I’m not in that fray as nicely? Am I caring if I’m not there?
Is that your millennial popping out although? Because if you happen to had been raised within the age of hashtag activism, Arab Spring rise and fall, and BLM and Say Her Name and all of these items, the efficiency was additionally thought-about a contribution.
That’s been manner diminished. Especially on the left, I feel in numerous methods.
Oh, for certain. For certain, for certain. But I additionally know that like, you understand how all these marches get organized? On the apps. You know, they’re additionally galvanizing instruments. I feel for me what I strive to simply preserve as a central focus in my life as I navigate media and speaking concerning the world, it is like how do I make my telephone and these apps a device that I exploit, not a tool and a factor that makes use of me? It’s like who’s in cost? There’s some days after I open my telephone the place it feels just like the telephone is in cost. I strive to battle that.
Well, it’s the algorithm, proper? I used to be speaking with somebody at present concerning the new TikTook possession and I requested, so unknown unknowns. What can we find out about how the brand new U.S. Trump aligned house owners will retrain the TikTook algorithm? And he stated, the reality is, we do not even know the way the algorithm works anyway, even earlier than the acquisition.
And so, sure, once you click on on one thing, once you watch one thing, whether or not it was the assaults on folks in Gaza or whether or not it is. The capturing of a protester, the algorithm serves you extra. You’ll get 50 extra variations, such as you stated.
Exactly. And half of them is likely to be AI.
That’s the worst. That’s the worst.
I feel millennials imagined firstly of this social media web age that this model of web would carry us into a brand new world and save the world totally within the course of. Right? And after I have a look at the info round consumption habits of the largest platforms on this planet proper now, they do not really feel like they’re pushing in the direction of a future. They all really feel caught in suggestions loops and at greatest nostalgic. This is a sort of completely different tangent, however on Spotify, 70% of all listening is catalogue. That means previous music, lower than new music. When I have a look at TikTook, numerous the developments that Gen Z is embracing are throwbacks to what we did 15, 20 years in the past.
And I feel after I see that occur, it is proof that every one of us proper now really feel much less safe concerning the world that lies forward than the world we had been seeing or noticed via others 15, 20 years in the past.
My controversial tackle that is that submit the awakening, submit going after the authors of the 1619 undertaking, submit the form of realignment of like historical past and framing of historical past round Black civil rights struggles, which all of those millennial Obama period reporters and columnists and writers all got here of age being public intellectuals in a manner that was enabled by on-line dialog, proper? Your Twitter Roxane Gays, your no matter.
It was identical to Black Twitter. It was a phenomenon.
‘It was Black Twitter had an instructional wing. But that tutorial wing really undergirded numerous the mainstream conversations in progressivism. With their retreat, I’ll use the phrase retreat, or growing older out, proper, as they’re off doing different issues, they’re professors now, they’ve written different books, they’re on different matters. And with the anti-woke motion so highly effective within the administration and in social media, I feel the individuals who would have made the arguments you are speaking about, their platform has been destabilized. They’re scattered. And I really feel like that is why your feed shouldn’t be what it was in 2017.
‘I feel that numerous how I’ve been altering as I grow old, experiencing these items, as I’ve to say to myself, oh, it is a cycle. It’s a cycle of progress after which retrenchment after which progress after which retrenchment. And after I remind myself of that, I really feel a bit extra fortified. This will not be the final time that this type of wave occurs. The activists will at all times be there. The of us enthusiastic about these points critically will at all times be there. I feel the largest problem in our second is how we discover a manner to talk these concepts to one another. And more and more, after I speak with of us, they’re saying it is going to occur offline. If the nice awakening occurred perhaps some 10 years in the past, we’re about due for an incredible de-phoning. I feel that the truth of what wants to occur on this nation and the way it wants to be accomplished, it is gonna have to occur exterior of the telephone. And that makes me really feel a bit bit higher as a result of I’m bored with my telephone, Audie.
This is how you bought referred to as “unc,” by the way in which. This is, that is the youth to “unc” pipeline in motion.
Yeah, once you’re identical to, you realize it is a cycle.
Um, Sam, I’m so glad that I nonetheless know you, you haven’t any thought, and it is, it has been so superior watching your profession. Tell folks the place they’ll discover you lately. What are you up to?
Yes. So my present all about leisure and enjoyable issues like films, music, TV, books, and so forth. It’s referred to as The Sam Sanders Show. You can get it wherever you get your podcast. I’m additionally most lively on Instagram. I nonetheless use that app at Sam Sanders.
That’s Sam Sanders. All proper, Sam, thanks a lot.
Thank you! Appreciate it!