Spirituality in America, from AI Jesus to Wicca – The Assignment with Audie Cornish

I’m Audie Cornish. This is The Assignment, and over the past yr, we have seen loads of tales concerning the resurgence of faith in America, particularly amongst youthful folks. I bear in mind speaking about this on an previous episode across the election of Pope Leo, as a result of there’s a main resurgence, as an illustration, of younger males in the Catholic Church. But the factor is, the story would not finish in the pews as a result of on the identical time, a really completely different type of non secular search is unfolding, one which’s occurring far exterior conventional church buildings and synagogues.

I would like you to really feel your vitality being linked, really feel your vitality being opened.

Here I’m, sitting below some copper wires, surrounded by witches in the center of a park in California, getting what I’m informed is meant to be a non secular cleanse.

While some individuals are returning to faith, others are transferring in the wrong way in the direction of trendy witchcraft and paganism. And throughout all of those areas, the sample is similar. People are overwhelmed, establishments really feel shaky, and there is similar to rising want for one thing extra grounding, historic, or frankly, one thing simply extra significant than what they’ve had earlier than. So at this time I’m speaking with NCS’s Donie O’Sullivan, who’s following these shifts up shut. He’s truly received a brand new collection out known as Devoted, and in it he is taking a look at how Americans are reshaping their non secular lives, how they’re questioning previous norms, and constructing, let’s name them new paths in the direction of goal in a second that’s outlined by stress and uncertainty. So keep with us. Donie O’Sullivan, welcome again to the Assignment.

Thank you a lot. Great to be again, Audie.

Now, I’ve one thing that I would like you to hear to type of set the stage for this dialog. Because we’re about to speak about how individuals are type of in search of spirituality in unlikely locations, seeing in unlikely locations, drawing from it from unlikely locations. And as I used to be making ready for this interview, I noticed this and thought, I want to ask him about this this in a approach.

Now I’m nervous.

Jesus was born out of a virgin mom. What’s extra virgin than a pc? If Jesus does return, even when Jesus was a bodily particular person in the previous, you do not assume that he might return as synthetic intelligence? Oh my god. Artificial intelligence might completely return as Jesus. Not simply return as Jesus however return as Jesus with all of the powers of Jesus. If you mix Tesla’s Optimus Robot and one of the best foundational synthetic intelligence mannequin or no matter. It reads your thoughts and it loves you and it desires you would not care when you kill it ‘trigger it is gonna simply go be with God once more.

Okay, that was Joe Rogan on the American Alchemy Podcast. It’s hosted by this man, I believe it is Jesse Michels. And this can be a entire type of like they have been in a dialog about tech and you understand, aliens, all types of issues. But I needed to play it as a result of it took this surprisingly non secular flip, proper? And non secular flip. And I assumed you’ve individuals who, as an example Gen Z, they’re gravitating numbers right here and there in the direction of nearly like stricter variations of assorted religions, proper? It’s like they are not going to church, they are going to an Orthodox church. Like, and particularly younger males, which I do know you have type of dabbled in this world as effectively, and talked to these people.

I used to be a younger man as soon as.

You have been, you have been. We’ll speak about that in half six. But however in order that’s fascinating, proper? This motion in the direction of a type of religiosity. And individuals are debating whether or not that’s one thing that’s like hand in hand with conservatism or these different issues. And then there are the folks you have been speaking to, individuals who possibly are discover themselves as outsiders to their communities and cultures.

‘Yeah. And yeah, I believe there’s like there is a factor the place I assume the it is the web age and likewise possibly Gen Z the place like folks folks now, no matter their bit is, they’re very dedicated to it. Like they wanna be dedicated to the dedicated to the bit. You know, whether or not it is like whether or not it’s going to-

Committed to the non secular bit.

Well, whether or not it is going to like Barry’s boot camp or whether or not it is being a Swiftie or whether or not it’s being an Eastern Orthodox Christian, you understand, I believe as folks try to discover identification and likewise I assume assert an identification, particularly on-line, and discover these communities on-line. And we have clearly seen this with like QAnon and all of the type of different issues through the years, however just like the the best way to actually get in on these on-line communities, proper, is to be all in in actual life. I imply, what’s been fascinating with this pattern, and and there is been some good reporting on this, if you point out, you understand, younger males transferring in the direction of extra very conservative, very orthodox variations of Christianity. After the election final yr, there was plenty of speak concerning the manosphere.

‘That that’s what I discovered. I’ve spent plenty of time listening to a few of these type of tremendous conservative Christian- plenty of particularly Catholic truly influencers, who’re they’ve popped themselves into the manosphere world. And in the type of extra poisonous elements of the manosphere world, there’s very a lot there’s the type of Andrew Tates of like subjugate girls, you understand, make girls submissive. And what these tremendous conservative Catholic guys have discovered, they’ve mentioned, wait, we’ve got a guide for that. We have a we’ve got a two thousand yr previous guide which you can learn that that in their custom, we have been studying it in this fashion for for years, the place sure, we do subjugate girls and we we subjugate all different kinds of individuals too.

Though the flip facet is that’s they’re providing a task to younger males who really feel just like the tradition is leaving them behind in the dialog about how to be, proper? Like we all know what we would like girls to be, and there is many children’ books and all types of enjoyable stuff. And for for boys and males, proper, that is the dialog. People usually are not doing one way or the other a adequate job serving to them navigate their position in society as it’s proper now. And all of those non secular practices have very outlined roles for males. And that that is interesting. That’s the that is the my translation of your argument.

If the first attraction of like these parts of Christianity are the subjugation of girls half and and like males being in this completely dominant position, like that’s that I believe lets say that that is unfavorable, proper? And I believe in s in in plenty of methods, like determining this query of destiny and males embracing a few of these extra excessive elements of faith, it is the type of identical query that the Democratic Party is attempting to work out earlier than 2028, proper? It’s it is like how will we create an area for males on-line, or how can we seize a number of the male viewers on-line that is not going into the tremendous conservative or into the MAGAsphere or no matter else? And I do not do not have that found out but.

Yeah, however it’s central to the query we’re speaking about right here as a result of for the people who find themselves in these religion communities which are gaining floor with conservatives, what they are saying is, look, we’re providing one thing. You guys do not provide something. Secularism would not provide something. And I do assume it is fascinating that there are people who find themselves nonetheless in being non secular.

‘Mm-hmm.

Right, that is what the Pew analysis has discovered. Like folks should be non secular, they could nonetheless imagine in a God, even when they are not feeling the standard organized faith the best way that their dad and mom did. And I do assume that is related to the world of individuals you have been speaking to who have been like into being Wiccans. What did you observe in phrases of like practices or like what does that even imply in this contemporary age to be a practising Wiccan?

I believe what what lots of people are drawn to Wiccanism and Witchcraft is is which you can type of make it what you need it to be. And plenty of the folks we met in Salem and we additionally met witches out in California, in in Long Beach. Loads of the witches I met have been individuals who have been additionally in the LGBTQ group. And a lot of them had a type of comparable story of rising up in the church, rising up Christian, being informed that they have been unhealthy folks due to who they’re, after which discovering in in witchcraft acceptance, proper?

But they really allow you to take part.

They did.

Which so which stunned me. I heard you, you understand, whispering your individual identify. Like are you able to give me an instance of like what does the apply appear like at this time?

‘So I imply, Salem was the place the the witch trials occurred. I believe one factor that type of completely encapsulates Salem at this time is that there was, I believe, two church buildings primarily concerned in Salem in the in the witch trials. One of the church buildings continues to be there at this time. It is now a Unitarian church and it’s being it is being run by a queer lady. So simply in phrases of the transformation of Salem in phrases of a spot that was demonizing girls and a church that’s demonizing girls, Salem is now a spot the place all the things is practiced very brazenly. People are extraordinarily open. I imply, in some ways there’s large elements of it, which is sort of a type of Disneyland of witchcraft. And to be trustworthy with you, everyone I spoke to there had completely different variations. There wasn’t a dogma as such, there wasn’t a doctrine that they have been going with. And however I believe that was a part of the attraction to it in that there’s something right here, there is a larger goal right here. They additionally spoke of the significance of their type of being a historical past and a lore there that they are often a part of a practice, however there is not one factor that we want to stick to. And so I believe plenty of us type of apply Catholic- Catholicism in that type of approach.

‘I used to be simply gonna say that time period. It’s like cafeteria fashion Christianity, additionally, proper? Like this concept of those are the elements I’m comfy with, these are the elements I’m not, and I’ll go forth that approach. It’s fascinating fascinated with this, although, in the context of the manosphere and the push by some younger males and a few quarters to go in the direction of extra orthodox variations of organized faith, proper? So you’ve like this, possibly folks you encountered, a queer group that is gravitating in the direction of one thing that’s extra open and open to them in their place in the tradition as effectively, proper? And then you’ve these males gravitating in the direction of one thing that’s extra open and type of exalting of their place in the tradition. Like folks aren’t simply in search of spirituality, they’re wanting to be, I assume I do not know what the phrase is. It’s like not simply accepted, however form of-

Empowered.

‘I believe individuals are gravitating to what- trigger at this time, but additionally all through historical past, however however particularly at this time, you understand, all of us really feel a bit untethered, I believe, to to actuality to one another. And I believe the boys of the manosphere and the the queer folks of of witchcraft are are coming from very completely different locations, however I believe there’s they’re each attempting striving to be empowered, proper? And when it comes to LGBTQ people who that I had spoken to, is that you understand, there’s one thing very highly effective about taking a practice, witchcraft, which has been traditionally demonized, after which pairing that with their very own group, who who continues to be demonized at this time, the the queer group, and taking taking all of that, taking all of this custom and saying, truly, have you learnt what? Witches ought to by no means have been demonized, similar to we should always have by no means been demonized. And we’re gonna take all this collectively now, and and that is our factor, as a result of that is witches have been solid apart and we’ve got been solid apart, and that is empowering.

We’re speaking to Donie O’Sullivan about his new present, Devoted, joins folks on their non secular journeys. Stay with us. So the place do the aliens come in? Which is one other factor that got here up in Devoted. And I assumed Donie’s actually increasing the definition right here. You checked out aliens and also you checked out like moral consumption, like people who find themselves like consuming roadkill, like deal with both one for me.

You know, as you and I’ve mentioned for years, my beat has usually been targeted round plenty of extremism, far proper principally, some far left, plenty of hate teams. So it is at all times been type of fairly unfavorable manifestations of of group. And for my very own psychological well being, possibly I I I assumed it would be good to have a look at some communities who’re manifesting in another way. And who nonetheless that also may appear odd or unusual to folks. And sure, I’ve spent a great deal of time over the past yr hanging out with individuals who very a lot imagine in aliens and UFOs. And that is the place you will say, Donie, we have misplaced you.

No, no, no. Cause bear in mind in Congress they began speaking about like unidentified objects or one thing and it type of like revived the dialog.

Yeah.

On the one hand. On the opposite hand, Saturday Night Live nonetheless has that like operating skit of people that have been taken by aliens they usually depict them as whole loopy folks. Like as completely malfunctioning.

And look, there isn’t any scarcity of loopy folks anyplace, with any group of individuals. When it comes to aliens…

‘You know, we we went to it was known as “contact in the desert.” It was earlier earlier in the yr in Palm Desert in California. But lots of people you might inform had some type of genuine- so I imply, no matter they noticed might have been lights in the sky, it might have been no matter, however no matter that was caught with them and and in some instances basically modified them, proper? Like it that they had this factor that they that just about that they would like that they hadn’t seen due to the stigma that goes with some of these items. And that is been fairly fascinating truly, as a result of with with as you talked about, all of the congressional stuff round this, like for years, for many years, UFO folks have type of been, you understand, such as you’re the crazies.

You’re the foil hat folks, yeah.

‘Yeah. And and for a few of these people now, there’s and you understand, there’s lots of people, after all, who attempt to get wealthy and well-known and promote their tales on this, however then there’s additionally lots of people like we noticed what I believe these Navy pilots over the previous few years the place like they noticed one thing they usually did not need to communicate out due to the stigma they usually felt like, effectively, possibly I’m going loopy. There’s one thing there now to them to assume, Oh my God, possibly I- you understand, possibly possibly possibly I’m not loopy. Maybe there’s something, I do not know what it’s. So there’s one thing like profound that is occurring there on that stage.

And I’m not selecting on you. I believe a part of it’s I needed to know why did you sweep a few of these issues below the umbrella of devotion and the devoted? You know what I imply? Like as you are wanting on the matters, how in your thoughts did you body it?

‘Oh, folks I imply, individuals are completely devoted to this. You know, that is their faith. This is their religion. This is what they imagine in. And the explanation I’ve been was charmed, I might say, by the UFO group, is that their message is, effectively, we should always all come collectively as humanity. Because if there are these forces past this world, whether or not they be good or unhealthy, it is essential that each one of us come collectively as a result of you understand, we we we won’t be combating amongst one another. And I simply discovered that message so- I do not it was simply such, yeah, however it was so refreshing. It was so refreshing in contrast to all the opposite stuff I’ve had to deal with.

What I’m studying, Donie, is you have been in a troublesome place after following all this extremism stuff.

I mentioned off air earlier than we began, I used to be like, I’ve been wanting to speak about this and I I believe now you can you are like, Oh God, he actually does need to speak about this.

‘No, no, I’m fascinated. Cause I’ll inform you one thing. This interview is a is a do-over for me as a result of one among our producers, who’s superb, pitched me Etsy witches, just like the world of individuals on Etsy who you may like pay to like put a hex on somebody or one thing. I do not know all of it. And then they have been like banned from Etsy. And I used to be similar to, that is that is an excessive amount of. I can not do that. This isn’t critical. And then I noticed you mainly doing an entire collection on it. And I spotted, like, okay, let me flip round from my very own biases and and try to work out what individuals are in search of. Because we hear plenty of issues described as like faith. I’ve been listening to folks say, oh, the obsession with AI, that is the tech proper’s faith. You know? Yeah. And we heard that Rogan clip earlier. Like, I really feel like folks between their tarot playing cards and their astrology and their Etsy witches, that they’re simply wanting anyplace.

‘I imply so two issues. One, like when it comes to the Etsy witches, proper? This is the factor. I believe like in any system of beliefs, you may look to some a part of any motion and say, okay, this isn’t critical, or these are grifters. And look, a lot of them are, proper? But additionally, like, you understand, I’ve been to St. Peter’s Square of the Vatican. There’s there is a ton of non-Christians promoting Christian merch there, you understand. Is plenty of the witch stuff on TikTok and Instagram BS? Of course it’s. Like, do these folks actually not imagine it? Of course not. Same with faith. When it comes to the AI and belief- inform me as a result of we have we simply shot this episode, have you ever heard of simulation idea?

I’m in the simulation idea Reddit thread, my buddy. I’m obsessed with these folks, however I’m obsessed watching them be obsessed. That there is a world of people that, sure, they for varied causes have a look at AI and assume a better energy is coming, or we are the on the eve of evoking this larger energy. And it does sound very mystic adjoining, I’ll simply say.

‘It completely is. Absolutely is. Yeah, I spent the previous few weeks hanging out with individuals who imagine that we stay in the matrix. So for for individuals who usually are not conscious, simulation idea is this concept that we stay in some type of simulated world or a online game, or or simply need to give it some thought, The Matrix, the film. I imply, it sounds so absurd. And I believe that is the place this all blends collectively and the place it type of comes again to what Rogan was saying. And Rogan, by the best way, has spoken fairly a bit about simulation idea as effectively. But for for one a part of this present that is popping out in a number of weeks on simulation idea, we went to a supposedly haunted home in Kansas with a ghost hunter, as one does. Basically, this man who’s believed in ghosts for a very long time and has had these experiences and whatnot. He’s very now in simulation idea. And and all of that to say is that he’s questioning now whether or not what he has been experiencing, what he at all times thought have been have been ghosts, proper? Like and what you consider as a ghost, like a type of spirit that is moved left this world, into effectively, truly, are these not ghosts, however are they other- are they folks exterior of the simulation, actually a glitch in the matrix? And look, once more, who’re we to say if who’re we to say if any of that is incorrect or proper? It all sounds loopy.

Yeah, it will get into philosophy. Like these are age previous type of philosophical concepts, however there’s one thing concerning the new know-how, the type of freight practice of the brand new know-how that has accelerated or I take that again, expanded the world of people that talked about this and talked like this.

‘Yeah, I do not wanna evaluate the simulation idea guys to Galileo, however the church, as Galileo and others have been type of determining the cosmos, like that originally was say, effectively, that goes towards our understanding in this in a non secular and and only a type of standard considering sense of that the solar and stars transfer across the solar and moon, etcetera transfer round like this. And then finally, after all, you understand, as that received confirmed over time as our understanding of it modified. There is a sense, and this can be a large feeling in Silicon Valley, among the many type of prime echelon, that like that we’re type of particularly with AI and the ability of AI in phrases of the way it can develop the capability to to analysis and to perceive and to discover discoveries, is that possibly we’re on the verge of determining one thing else that’s some a part of of of life and the way we’re right here in the primary place. And I assume so I believe we’re type of like in that second the place it is a very-

It is. The flip facet is the zealotry that comes from that, proper? Like then so many issues are justified when you imagine you are working in the direction of actually a higher good, actually one thing that shifts humanity. Like I believe that what you mentioned about folks being dedicated to the bit, I do know it is a joke, however it additionally like there are methods that our depth culturally, whether or not it is partisanship or these different parts or stan tradition, you understand, round music and celebrities, it simply leads us to a spot of extremes.

‘Absolutely. And that’s what’s occurring. And, you understand, I’ve I’ve truly type of seen it with a number of the folks clearly in in the alien stuff, in these items, however that additionally has occurred I imply, you understand, born once more Christians, they’re the Christians who’re almost definitely to completely lecture you and bore you and be so dogmatic about their understanding of Christianity, proper? So-

But I’m bringing it up as a result of I believe when folks have a look at like Pew analysis and issues like that, it is the people who find themselves in the center the place there’s decline. So it isn’t the born once more Christians, proper? It’s type of just like the mid stage church goer.

Yes.

Like that world of individuals is definitely getting smaller and and in that approach that is fairly comparable to our politics. The world of individuals in the center.

‘Yeah, and I believe when you go on the night information, proper, and convey up UFOs, like oftentimes the anchor or the reporter can have to like have a wry smile or like considerably roll their eyes or type of sign to the viewers, by the best way, I do know- we all know that is loopy. And I do not assume individuals are as into that anymore. You know, I I believe they need to be type of extra open minded. I do not essentially know will this get us all to a greater place, as a result of a lot of the stuff that is being mentioned on Rogan is dumb and is so sick knowledgeable and is frankly poisonous and unhealthy. But I assume there’s there’s gotta be a happier medium, proper, the place organizations like ours and industries like ours can type of be extra open to these conversations.

Well, Donie, I do not understand how you bought to this place, however I’m glad you are there exploring all of this, exploring all this.

I need assistance. Help me.

Thank you a lot for speaking with us.

Thank you, Audie.

Donie O’Sullivan, NCS senior correspondent masking the intersection of politics and know-how, his new collection Devoted is accessible on NCS All Access. And thanks to all of you, we’ll see you subsequent week.